Well T.O.O. It would appear that the more things change, the more they stay the same

Posted by TURNCOAT on April 26, 1998 at 23:55:31:

First, i would like to say hello to everyone, since i havnt posted in a while. Ive been quite busy with work and a new girlfriend has taken a lot of my time.......On to the subject at hand..]
I didnt expect to see all this controversy about T.O.O's identity Again, since i though we went through all that months ago..... I was hoping to pick up on some really cool tips about what all you guys have been doing technology wise since i was last around, but it appears that the "Doubting Thomas's " lead by Power, no less, are back in action.
I seem to remember one of my last messages i posted was attack by Power, and when i answered his rebutle, he denied having said what he infact stated. For those of you who do not remember, it was the post that regared Roll Cages and the use of materials that may be the minimum in spec., and there affects in an impact do to the heat effect zone of the weld area, and the integrity of that weld in minimum spec wall thickness vs. the joints ability to handle impact do to a larger heat effected zone with a heavy'r wall tubing. Well, that was the past, but it seems that the attacks continue.
Most of you who have been hear awhile, such as Junior, Demon, Overlord, and of coarse T.O.O, I'm sure remember that i was one of the first to find out who T.O.O really is, and what his companies background is, as well as some of the people, teams, and programs he has worked both for and with.
What allowed me to do this was both research in that I did on subjects that were printed,(ie Hot Rod, Circle Track)as well as people i talked to that knew of him in the racing circles. For those of you who dont remember, i make my living in the racing circles, and was a die hard domestic fanatic that found an interest in this Import craze, which was fueled even more by the participation of this guy named T.O.O, who had provided information to members of the board,( free information as far as i know, since i never paid for any of the stuff)
My resect for T.O.O doesnt come from this board like most of you, it comes from what I found out he has done long before this board and all your bickering over his SC.
I was asked then, and i am sure i will be asked again, to provide the information that i found out to peopel on this board, and as i said before, if he wants "YOU" guys to know, and he thinks it will make a difference to "YOU" guys, and your ability to increase your learning curve, I'm sure he will provide it to you, and at no cost, since that is how he has operated up until now, as far as I know.
As for "YOU" guys being let down, cause you dont know who he is, you obviously dont have a clue about the firestorm that the "TALKING HEADS" article as well as the "HIGH SWIRL, LEAN BURN" cause him, as the world had never heard of torque and horsepower figures with the kind of brakes specific fuel consumptions he achieved almost 20 years ago, that are just now being achieved in many of the motorsports we see today. And, im sure that any of you who know what these articles said and showed, also know that nearly everyone else in the industry said his black magic was not understandable, and rightfully so since only was able to since he was the guy who developed it......
If any of you are neive enough to think that the Asians were the ones who develpoped the concept internal combustion engine, than you would also believe that because you dont see T.O.O's face and name in magazine articles and full color page adds, that he must be a fraud.
Dont be so vein as to not think that part of what made the Asian cars what they are is having had the ability to see what the Americans did with the gasoline burning engine. The reason i bring this up is, because what just as the Asians have benifited from seeing what works and what doesnt by watch the domestics operate, so has the world of motorsports by the technology that T.O.O has brought to it over many years. I think that also, most of you forget that the reason he is here is because this is a hobbie, not a living, but i would also like to add that the closer you guys bring this thing to a form which resembles having to deal with the "pain in the asses" of the industry, the less fun it becomes and the less pleasure that is gained. We all know that anything that is important to us on a personal level always gains our utmost attention, and I think that is why you see guys like T.O.O. getting into this import stuff, because it is fun..........Fun is when your Civic or Mazda puts a camaro or corvette in the weeds from one stop light to the next, but its not any fun when all people are doing is bitching about how ita not fair that they dont know who someone is, where they live, how much money they make, there home phone number, and so on. I think tha tmost of you seem to forget that we come here for knowledge, entertainment, and share in a common goal to make a small, not so well know form of motorsports grow into something the world would have never dreamed of.
I dont think any of us could have ever imagined what it felt like on a hot sunny day in Talladega in 1985 , when Bill Elliot had come back from being 2 and a half laps down , to win that race, set the close coarsed speed record which im sure still stands, knowing that "YOU"(T.O.O) were the man who made that dream happen , because of the technology which you provided to that team that showed on that day, that you were infact "THE BEST" at what you did.
I will end this message with this.............If EVERYTHING T.O.O has said on this message board is nothing but pur bullshit, bad technical information, and poor humor, i will still have more respect for him for what he has done in his life time,( before import cars and a stupid chat message board on some world wide computer linked intenet) than ANYONE I know of.........because the last time I checked, nobody on this chat board except him redefined the laws of Thermaldynamics, not to mention having fought Cancer twice and still be living proof that it can be done........Most people who remembers who he is, also thnks he is dead, and i suspect that he prefers it that way, so when its 11:00 o'clock on a friday nite, while most of us are either screwing are ole ladies or crusing are favorite hangout, or testing at the drag strip, he's not.......Instead he's trying to find a better way to make the program he's working perform, or having to answer questions on this chat board like"who are you"?
Thanks T.O.O, and I look forward to ever having a chance to meet you some day...........And if so, you know what im going to ask, how in the hell did you make that Boss 429 exhaust port kick ass like you did.....

can we please end this now?

Posted by junior on April 29, 1998 at 06:13:43:
In Reply to: Well T.O.O. It would appear that the more things change, the more they stay the same posted by body on April 26, 1998 at 23:55:31:

turncoat: i appreciate your validation as a long-time member of the board. we've disagreed in the past, and still discuss whatever comes up civilly (i think...)

in light of that, i'd like to call for an end to the fighting in this thread and others...

this being a text-based board, the only way to honestly judge a person is by the validity of their posts herein.

Power has been posting longer than i have. i'm going on 7 or 8 months as a regular, with occasional posts of mine dating over a year old (anyone else remember the *first* time there was a field to put your name in?)... i first found this board after buying my sentra se-r (first real car, and still miss it terribly. when i reach the goal i've got planned with my jetta, and after that, get my credit cards paid off, i'll be buying another classic se-r.) he seems to really have a finger on the vein of touring-car road-racing and rallying, two forms of racing that, IMO, require a lot more skill than dragging (not to say dragging is for the unskilled racer... i've left karting, so it's all i've got at the moment, and IMO, a lot of the stoplight confrontations i win have a lot more to do with my technique than what either of the cars is). i've disagreed with him on occasion as well (if the audi 1.8 20V turbo has less potential than, say, nissan SR20DET, toyota 3SGTE and possibly 4AGTE, mitsubishi DSM motor [forget the engine designation, sorry] why has that engine with the AWD syncro tranny been banned from european touring-car racing? this leads to both T.O.O.'s and my own favorite points... TOO's being that high-RPM horsepower is just a big number if you don't have the torque and gearing to get there [ahem... integra type-r], and mine being that there are much more significant gains as far as #s go [lap times, ETs, whatever] by putting the power down well. but i'm rambling.)

TOO has been on the board a month or two less than me, but i don't think anyone will argue with the statement that the technical knowledge he exhibits has been more than sufficient for me to give him the benefit of the doubt that he knows what he's talking about. and i stress again that technical knowledge is all that matters to me as far as communication with and opinion of board members... whether or not he is who he says is irrelevent *in my point of view*. he gives more valid and advanced advice and education in the space of a week than i do in two months... this alone is enough for me to respect him (as i tend to do with most people who i can learn from). TOO, i hope you're not insulted by the fact that i don't yet actively endorse your supercharger kit to people i talk to either on or offline... i'm in the software industry, and therefore deal with vaporware (products that are in a constant state of "to be released *real soon now*, we promise") a lot, so forgive me if i wait to sing the praises of your kit until i've seen it applied on the strip and pass CARB.

and i do hate to say it, TOO, but some of your posts are less than what i've come to expect from you. i'm half wondering if someone has hacked your account name/password. i don't see any of the posts from Power that supposedly started this thread as insulting, or even inflammatory. you've always been a patient one... please don't change now.

apologies to all for the long post, but i've been active in "discussions" like this more than once... and this is my first time posting as an outside observer. i don't like the thought of the board without any of the regulars, but losing Power, TOO, NITRO, or TURNCOAT would be especially detrimental.


Re: T.O.O. Has Many Old Friends With Missing Feet. It's Not Worth It.

Posted by NITRO on May 21, 1998 at 20:51:20:

It's hard to make yourself buy a SFI approved flywheel, and scattershield when you could be adding hp to the car with the money, and with the exception of the flywheel, non of the safety equipment makes your ride faster. Once you've seen the damage a clutch/flywheel or crank hub explosion can cause, you'll buy the "good stuff" in a hurry.

T.O.O. often says he's very fortunate to have lived through those days. As the nerve endings in his feet were destroyed by the chemotherapy, he fully understands what losing the function of your feet or legs can be like. He will not sell certain products to various "racers" until the sanctioning bodies have inspected their "equipment". When you have seen as many customers crash and die as T.O.O. has, it takes a mighty toll. If we hadn't built such a strong engine would the accident have happened?? It's a tough business, and these days T.O.O. really doesn't get to close to the drivers. Winning is everything, but you can lose a lot more than a race in this sport.

Re: T.O.O., where's the book?

Posted by NITRO on May 22, 1998 at 19:39:27:

Many people have been wanting a book for years. Obviously the amount of information relative to internal combustion engines and "what works and why", would be very valuable, and T.O.O. does have "volumes" of test data and text dating back to the earliest days in the 60's. I've looked through some project note books that T.O.O. assembled for some of the exotic lean burn programs he did for General Dynamics on the Electrosonic Induction system that ran (and made power) at 24 - 25 - 1 air fuel ratios back in the mid 70's. The things they did in that particular program were incredable, especially since the engines were all domestic with awful stock combustion chambers.
There is another aspect to T.O.O.'s life that a lot of people talk about frequently around here. This subject matter would fall into something titled "The Life And Times". You can not imagin the "experiences" he's had with all the racers over the years. The services provided by many race teams and OE manufacturers are certainly surprising, as are some of the games he's played over the years with the rule books in every form of sanctioned competition. I'll say this, Smokey was pretty crafty, but I don't believe he had anything on T.O.O., but the difference was T.O.O. never got caught, or when he did, the rules actually allowed "his interpretation", but the sanctioning bodies were quick to amend and better define the rules. Next race T.O.O. would have several components that fall into the "gray areas" of the rules and the tech. people would be ready, but T.O.O. would put something on the car / engine that was fairly easy to spot. The tech people always went for the "obvious" infraction, issued warnings, and never looked at the areas that were really questionable. He set A.J. Foyt's car up with nitrous back in 75 for the July race at Daytona, and was so blatent that he even had a 10,000 RPM(nitrous) decal on the car. A.J. qualified on the pole, and Nascar impounded the car immediately as it had been caught with their radar gun at 10 mph faster than any other car. They did locate some tiny tubing that ran through the roll cage and terminated with the head of a pop rivet in the air cleaner housing, but they couldn't find the source. Now, A.J. had supposedly injured his back a week earlier, and used an inflated cushon in the driver's seat, and he always took it out of the car with him....well it wasn't filled with air!!
Nascar never realized the cushon was the source, and made A.J. start from dead last as a penalty for qualifying with nitrous plumbing....the decal really pissed them too, but the engine T.O.O. had built was strong with out any aid, and A.J. worked his way to the front and won easily.
T.O.O. frequently says that he's been allowed to do and experience things one person shouldn't experience in three lifetimes, and he's right. He's seen and done it all, and done it very well.